Quote from: Hardliner on October 20, 2020, 09:08:18 pm

Quote from: PeterGrant on October 20, 2020, 05:54:19 pm

List of mandates for a 2nd referendum

SNP election win 2015  They didn't win the election, they just gained more seats in the FPTP system which isn't a mandate.
SNP election win 2016  This isn't a mandate.  It just meant that the SNP had the most seats out of all the parties in an assembly used for devolved matters, which don't include independence referendums.  Most voters voted for Unionists parties anyway, which is a more accurate reflection on the sovereignty of the Scottish people as stated in the Claim of Right.
SNP election win 2017  They didn't win the election and they actually lost seats.  Absolutely not a mandate.
SNP election win 2019  Again, they didn't win the election.  Not a mandate.
SNP election win 2021 to come  Has Fremsley hacked your account?  Big assumption there, and even if the SNP do win this devolved assembly election **shivvers**, it isn't a mandate.  It just shows that the SNP have been elected to run Scotland in terms of matters that are devolved, which don't include independence referendums, especially ones that go against the Edinburgh agreement and have been campaigned for despite promises to the contrary.
Pro-independence majority at Holyrood  Irrelevant.  Independence referendums are not a devolved matter.
Pro-independence majority of Scotland’s MPs at Westminster.  Irrelevant, especially when most Scots voted for Unionist parties.
The Claim of Right.  The original 1689 Claim of Right, willingly signed by the moderniser good King Billy (had a ten foot willy), was to transfer power from the monarch to parliament, nothing about frequent secession referendums every few years.  The more recent Claim of Right was about the importance of the sovereignty of the Scottish people.  The most accurate barometer of Scottish opinion in this regard was the Independence referendum in 2014 where a No beat Yes by 11% on a massive turnout.  Since then, the last Holyrood election even had most Scots voting Unionist.  The Claim of Right actually backs up the stance of not having another Independence Referendum.  If we were to ignore Scottish opinion and grant another referendum, it would be denying Scots their sovereignty and going against the Claim of Right.
International law  There is nothing in International Law that could be seen as a mandate.
The UN Charter  There is nothing in the UN charter that could be seen as a mandate.
Scottish public opinion  Recent spoofing opinion polls can not even be seen as a fair reflection of Scottish public opinion for several reasons, never mind a mandate.

I could go on.  Be my guest!

There will be a second referendum and unionists only have themselves to blame. It will be defeat from the jaws of their 2014 victory.  Fremsley, please give Peter his username back.

A truly outstanding swording. I'm sitting here in awe.

Many thanks Brother AJ.

**Bows**

Quote from: AJ on October 20, 2020, 10:12:06 pm

Quote from: Hardliner on October 20, 2020, 09:08:18 pm

Quote from: PeterGrant on October 20, 2020, 05:54:19 pm

List of mandates for a 2nd referendum

SNP election win 2015  They didn't win the election, they just gained more seats in the FPTP system which isn't a mandate.
SNP election win 2016  This isn't a mandate.  It just meant that the SNP had the most seats out of all the parties in an assembly used for devolved matters, which don't include independence referendums.  Most voters voted for Unionists parties anyway, which is a more accurate reflection on the sovereignty of the Scottish people as stated in the Claim of Right.
SNP election win 2017  They didn't win the election and they actually lost seats.  Absolutely not a mandate.
SNP election win 2019  Again, they didn't win the election.  Not a mandate.
SNP election win 2021 to come  Has Fremsley hacked your account?  Big assumption there, and even if the SNP do win this devolved assembly election **shivvers**, it isn't a mandate.  It just shows that the SNP have been elected to run Scotland in terms of matters that are devolved, which don't include independence referendums, especially ones that go against the Edinburgh agreement and have been campaigned for despite promises to the contrary.
Pro-independence majority at Holyrood  Irrelevant.  Independence referendums are not a devolved matter.
Pro-independence majority of Scotland’s MPs at Westminster.  Irrelevant, especially when most Scots voted for Unionist parties.
The Claim of Right.  The original 1689 Claim of Right, willingly signed by the moderniser good King Billy (had a ten foot willy), was to transfer power from the monarch to parliament, nothing about frequent secession referendums every few years.  The more recent Claim of Right was about the importance of the sovereignty of the Scottish people.  The most accurate barometer of Scottish opinion in this regard was the Independence referendum in 2014 where a No beat Yes by 11% on a massive turnout.  Since then, the last Holyrood election even had most Scots voting Unionist.  The Claim of Right actually backs up the stance of not having another Independence Referendum.  If we were to ignore Scottish opinion and grant another referendum, it would be denying Scots their sovereignty and going against the Claim of Right.
International law  There is nothing in International Law that could be seen as a mandate.
The UN Charter  There is nothing in the UN charter that could be seen as a mandate.
Scottish public opinion  Recent spoofing opinion polls can not even be seen as a fair reflection of Scottish public opinion for several reasons, never mind a mandate.

I could go on.  Be my guest!

There will be a second referendum and unionists only have themselves to blame. It will be defeat from the jaws of their 2014 victory.  Fremsley, please give Peter his username back.

A truly outstanding swording. I'm sitting here in awe.

Many thanks Brother AJ.

**Bows**

I feel on this issue Comrade Hardliner you have fought manfully, waving around a bin lid so that my penetrating thrusts yielded merely superficial wounds as opposed to truly devastating strikes.

We both live to fight another day for the soul of the nation.

😀

So the SNP returns the most people to Holyrude and WM .These are elections to do with running Scotland and the UK.Not a indy ballot.You have amongst indys the old school who voted for Brexit,who dont want secondary governing from Brussels If Scotland goes it alone.Anyone can print anything on a sheet of paper.Corbyn promised free education for the masses at uni level.Do you think he could carry it through?
Im led to believe from the midlands of England that the combined total of SNP votes in Scottish and General Elections does not exceed 45%.Please correct me if Im wrong.That was the figure the indys hit in the 'once in a generation' ref in 2014.I know kids are knocking babies out at alarming rates these days but 6 years aint a generation!
Sturgon would have a heart attack if she had to run Scotland as a indy nation.Take the EU away and it would be curtains.She bangs on and on about has She has to be seen to the masses to be battling for a indy.Do you think she seriously wants it?Im not too sure.I think she wants debate but if it were to happen she will be gone.The caliber of politiction is poorer these days compared to previous years.The SNP are dire in this respect.Hamas Useless!Dear oh dear.
Like I said in a previous post a federal Scotland is more likely.If you think You can go it alone then a Federal Scotland will be no worries .Spend what you generate.It would actually be a good practice place for a Indy Scotland.Personally I wouldnt be confident it would be a success without WM money but we'd see once and for all whether Scotland could be self suffienct away from the Union.Then people can see the truth.
Im for the Union .It may not be perfect but it works.Nothing to stop us working on it.I do worry for Scotland as a lot of SNP types seem to be of the 'entitled' type.Filling the country will Eastern Europeons to do the work some of these dont fancy is not a recipe for success.I remember being up Craig Tara in 07 and being shocked at the number of EEs working there

And JTC, the SNP are polling in the high 50s for Holyrood and Westminster.

It’s likely that the SNP and Greens combined will take more than 60% of the vote at Holyrood next May.

Quote from: PeterGrant on October 21, 2020, 10:33:00 am

If it’s in the manifesto, and people vote for it, then by international law and the UN charter, a referendum must follow.

The alternative is constitutional crisis and political Armageddon for the unionist cause.

Just have the guts to fight a referendum if the electorate in Scotland votes for one. It’s your only chance.

Anyone would think the unionists are running scared. It should be an opportunity for them to smash independence good and proper, but they don’t seem keen. 🤔

It got smashed good and proper six short years ago.

That’s true, but now it’s back. You need to deal with it.

I’m not arguing the rights and wrongs here of that. I’m just telling you what the political landscape is.

And JTC, the SNP are polling in the high 50s for Holyrood and Westminster.

It’s likely that the SNP and Greens combined will take more than 60% of the vote at Holyrood next May.

Only according to spoofing opinion polls, which always estimate Nhationalism as higher than it actually is.  As well as that, the campaign hasn't even started.

In Ruth and Douglas we trust!

Quote from: PeterGrant on October 21, 2020, 10:33:00 am

If it’s in the manifesto, and people vote for it, then by international law and the UN charter, a referendum must follow.

The alternative is constitutional crisis and political Armageddon for the unionist cause.

Just have the guts to fight a referendum if the electorate in Scotland votes for one. It’s your only chance.

Anyone would think the unionists are running scared. It should be an opportunity for them to smash independence good and proper, but they don’t seem keen. 🤔

**Picks up bin lid**

There's nothing in International law or the UN charter that grants a 2nd referendum if voted in a manifesto for a devolved assembly which has nothing to do with such a matter.

If there is something, then I invite you to post it up here.

Either that or you could start legal proceedings yourself.  I'm sure Buc could stump up the cash!

There are legal proceedings underway. 😎

If it’s in the manifesto, and people vote for it, then by international law and the UN charter, a referendum must follow.

The alternative is constitutional crisis and political Armageddon for the unionist cause.

Just have the guts to fight a referendum if the electorate in Scotland votes for one. It’s your only chance.

Anyone would think the unionists are running scared. It should be an opportunity for them to smash independence good and proper, but they don’t seem keen. 🤔

They can’t put something in the manifesto that’s outwith their remit daft erse.
Only fückin idiots fall for that old shite.