Quote from: Jtc on November 07, 2020, 09:21:36 am

Quote from: MasterOfAssumptions on November 07, 2020, 01:15:42 am

Quote from: Hardliner on November 06, 2020, 11:49:03 pm

Quote from: MasterOfAssumptions on November 06, 2020, 11:35:35 pm

I hate the pigeon holing of the class system. A lot of folk look down on the working class but also the working class can judge someone who speaks well and has a bit of money. I'd rather **** just took folk as they are regardless of background, status or career. Im a leftie apparently and definitely socialist leaning but I'll take folk as they come. I don't like a left wing socialists like George Galloway but I respect a millionaire businessesman like the boy who is the CEO of Timpsons.

A very wise stake to take, MOA.

Growing up in a small town, you mixed with folk from all different 'classes' and no one cared.  I see it re-emerge as people get older and mix with those doing the same type of job though.

I don't necessarily see class as a bad thing anyway.  There's a strong case for mixing with your own meaning less jealousy, less competing with your peers and more happiness, but I just don't think it even exists that much now.

I've got mixed feelings about George Galloway. He is like a cartoon character in a way and can be entertaining, but he also makes silly, emotive, soundbitey points.  However, if you hear him talk sensibly then he's a wealth of knowledge and an articulate man IMO.

Good points, mate

On the subject of George Galloway. He should speak for a lot of what I believe in but I know as a Dundonian a lot of the stuff he claims is absolute bullshit. The term champagne socialist gets thrown about and normally I don't think there is anything the matter with someone enjoying the fruits of their labour providing they are looking after the folk on the frontline. I've mentioned the Timpson guy as a very rich successful guy but someone who looks after his staff and will happily cut  part of his very successful business  profits and lifestyle if it meant the shop worker is looked after. Regardless hw will still be a millionaire. Galloway for me is in it for himself, the anti indy, pro brexit and in the pockets of saddam Hussain as much as I might agree with some of his views is all to line his pockets. Just like to add his views on indy has no influence on my opinion on him

Timpsons are excellent from what Iv read and heard.
Whilst I’m a Brexiter and Unionist I’d pretty much agree on GG with you. He is easily a match for Nicola though and she knows it.
Great post

He’s a great orator.
Sturgeon is only a good one
Agreed. I think Scargill in his pomp was better then GG . Not that I agree with all he says mind. Preferred Gormley

Quote from: Jtc on November 07, 2020, 09:06:37 am

Quote from: PeterGrant on November 06, 2020, 11:06:47 pm

How do we define working class in the UK in 2020?

A good start would be people who go to work . It’s a cultural thing as well . People who are supposed to represent us have allowed millions of unskilled workers to be used by capitalism to crush the indigenous population and the immigrants who arrived prior to Blair's open door policies . When I say crush I’m talking about wages and rights. We can console ourselves though watching our flat screen TVs which were cheap as they were imported 

Lots of people who go to work are now considered middle class.

I don’t consider any worker to be “unskilled”.

Wages and rights are better than at any time in history. Some rights were rolled back under Theresa May but still. The main problem is the cost of living and inadequate provisions such as state pensions.

As for flat screen TVs, is this really still the metaphor for people living beyond their means? What other kind of TVs are available? Or should less affluent people just not have TVs?

Flat screen TVs are not even expensive anymore. It’s about £300 for a 50”. I bought my Samsung in 2008 and it’s still fantastic 12 years later.

The idea that the least well off shouldn’t have the basics of modern living is all about keeping people down, when we should be encouraging people up.

Quote from: Hardliner on November 07, 2020, 01:03:24 pm

Quote from: PeterGrant on November 07, 2020, 09:52:47 am

Quote from: Jtc on November 07, 2020, 09:06:37 am

Quote from: PeterGrant on November 06, 2020, 11:06:47 pm

How do we define working class in the UK in 2020?

A good start would be people who go to work . It’s a cultural thing as well . People who are supposed to represent us have allowed millions of unskilled workers to be used by capitalism to crush the indigenous population and the immigrants who arrived prior to Blair's open door policies . When I say crush I’m talking about wages and rights. We can console ourselves though watching our flat screen TVs which were cheap as they were imported 

Lots of people who go to work are now considered middle class.

I don’t consider any worker to be “unskilled”.

Wages and rights are better than at any time in history. Some rights were rolled back under Theresa May but still. The main problem is the cost of living and inadequate provisions such as state pensions.

As for flat screen TVs, is this really still the metaphor for people living beyond their means? What other kind of TVs are available? Or should less affluent people just not have TVs?

Flat screen TVs are not even expensive anymore. It’s about £300 for a 50”. I bought my Samsung in 2008 and it’s still fantastic 12 years later.

The idea that the least well off shouldn’t have the basics of modern living is all about keeping people down, when we should be encouraging people up.

It's all very well arguing about class and how we define class or skill sets,  but I still think JTC's point stands.

Bringing in workers from abroad who do lower paid jobs lowers the wages of the existing population who do these jobs IMO.

I'd say that less affluent people should indeed not have TVs if it means they are living beyond their means.  In my younger days I managed to get in to thousands of pounds of debt due by trying to keep up with my peers, going out on the p1ss, getting the best clothes etc.. all good at the time, but it was stupid of me and left me with lots of debt.  I eventually got it paid off by a combination of doing extra hours and living a very basic lifestyle for a long time, as well as the famous British still upper lip.

People should be taught from a very young age to focus on saving, living within your means and building a skill set that will stand you in good stead IMO.

For me, it's not about saying that those with the least money shouldn't have things, but about having a system in place where anyone can have those things if they work hard and make sacrifices.  People shouldn't feel embarrassed to do certain jobs either.  There's absolutely nothing wrong with bin collecting, working behind a till, street sweeping or even dragging your old lawn mower round the streets and chapping doors to ask if you can mow folks lawns.

Foreign workers aren’t cheaper in my experience. They have to be paid the minimum wage and it tends to be minimum wages jobs that foreign workers come to Scotland to do.

I have personally recruited large groups of people to come to Scotland from Poland and it was only because I couldn’t find enough people in Scotland. It was an absolute nightmare though. As well as pay, you need to subsidise travel and accommodation and that caused a whole lot of headaches. I will never do it again because:

1. It is far more hassle that it is worth
2. Foreign workers no longer want to come here

People only resort to using overseas workers when there is no other option. And, in a job market which has the highest employment and lowest unemployment ever, I cannot for the life of me understand why anyone has a concern about overseas workers.

Immigration obviously is a boost for the economy.

Quote from: TheVoiceOfReason on November 07, 2020, 02:34:15 pm

Quote from: PeterGrant on November 07, 2020, 02:33:21 pm

Immigration obviously is a boost for the economy.

Not in the experience you’ve outlined.

People who come to Scotland to work for fixed periods aren’t immigrants. Were you unaware of free movement of people when we were in the EU?

Quote from: TheVoiceOfReason on November 07, 2020, 02:45:22 pm

Quote from: PeterGrant on November 07, 2020, 02:39:53 pm

Quote from: TheVoiceOfReason on November 07, 2020, 02:34:15 pm

Quote from: PeterGrant on November 07, 2020, 02:33:21 pm

Immigration obviously is a boost for the economy.

Not in the experience you’ve outlined.

People who come to Scotland to work for fixed periods aren’t immigrants. Were you unaware of free movement of people when we were in the EU?

So immigration isn’t a boost for the economy.
Make yer mind up.

Immigration is a boost for the economy. I told you already.

Quote from: TheVoiceOfReason on November 07, 2020, 03:15:44 pm

Quote from: PeterGrant on November 07, 2020, 03:06:09 pm

Quote from: TheVoiceOfReason on November 07, 2020, 02:45:22 pm

Quote from: PeterGrant on November 07, 2020, 02:39:53 pm

Quote from: TheVoiceOfReason on November 07, 2020, 02:34:15 pm

Quote from: PeterGrant on November 07, 2020, 02:33:21 pm

Immigration obviously is a boost for the economy.

Not in the experience you’ve outlined.

People who come to Scotland to work for fixed periods aren’t immigrants. Were you unaware of free movement of people when we were in the EU?

So immigration isn’t a boost for the economy.
Make yer mind up.

Immigration is a boost for the economy. I told you already.

Has it boosted ours?

Yes.