List of mandates for a 2nd referendum

SNP election win 2015
SNP election win 2016
SNP election win 2017
SNP election win 2019
SNP election win 2021 to come
Pro-independence majority at Holyrood
Pro-independence majority of Scotland’s MPs at Westminster
The Claim of Right
International law
The UN Charter
Scottish public opinion

I could go on.

There will be a second referendum and unionists only have themselves to blame. It will be defeat from the jaws of their 2014 victory.

Quote from: Jtc on October 20, 2020, 07:48:43 pm

Quote from: PeterGrant on October 20, 2020, 05:54:19 pm

List of mandates for a 2nd referendum

SNP election win 2015
SNP election win 2016
SNP election win 2017
SNP election win 2019
SNP election win 2021 to come
Pro-independence majority at Holyrood
Pro-independence majority of Scotland’s MPs at Westminster
The Claim of Right
International law
The UN Charter
Scottish public opinion

I could go on.

There will be a second referendum and unionists only have themselves to blame. It will be defeat from the jaws of their 2014 victory.

Peter, you had a vote on your terms and lost.
Even trusting 16 year olds to vote when your leaders won’t allow them to buy a packet of cigarettes.Some of the younger , more idealistic voters will be going for a mortgage soon . Easy to vote for something when you have no responsibility. Get a bit of debt around you and the picture changes.
You will see a federal Scotland before you see Indy.

I have circa £300k of debt.

We lost in 2015. The unionists won. And they got another 10 years out of the union.

It’s nobody’s fault but their own that they have placed it in peril once again. Had they behaved it would not be happening.

The people though now in their majority want independence and will take it through democratic means. Cest la vie.

List of mandates for a 2nd referendum

SNP election win 2015  They didn't win the election, they just gained more seats in the FPTP system which isn't a mandate.
SNP election win 2016  This isn't a mandate.  It just meant that the SNP had the most seats out of all the parties in an assembly used for devolved matters, which don't include independence referendums.  Most voters voted for Unionists parties anyway, which is a more accurate reflection on the sovereignty of the Scottish people as stated in the Claim of Right.
SNP election win 2017  They didn't win the election and they actually lost seats.  Absolutely not a mandate.
SNP election win 2019  Again, they didn't win the election.  Not a mandate.
SNP election win 2021 to come  Has Fremsley hacked your account?  Big assumption there, and even if the SNP do win this devolved assembly election **shivvers**, it isn't a mandate.  It just shows that the SNP have been elected to run Scotland in terms of matters that are devolved, which don't include independence referendums, especially ones that go against the Edinburgh agreement and have been campaigned for despite promises to the contrary.
Pro-independence majority at Holyrood  Irrelevant.  Independence referendums are not a devolved matter.
Pro-independence majority of Scotland’s MPs at Westminster.  Irrelevant, especially when most Scots voted for Unionist parties.
The Claim of Right.  The original 1689 Claim of Right, willingly signed by the moderniser good King Billy (had a ten foot willy), was to transfer power from the monarch to parliament, nothing about frequent secession referendums every few years.  The more recent Claim of Right was about the importance of the sovereignty of the Scottish people.  The most accurate barometer of Scottish opinion in this regard was the Independence referendum in 2014 where a No beat Yes by 11% on a massive turnout.  Since then, the last Holyrood election even had most Scots voting Unionist.  The Claim of Right actually backs up the stance of not having another Independence Referendum.  If we were to ignore Scottish opinion and grant another referendum, it would be denying Scots their sovereignty and going against the Claim of Right.
International law  There is nothing in International Law that could be seen as a mandate.
The UN Charter  There is nothing in the UN charter that could be seen as a mandate.
Scottish public opinion  Recent spoofing opinion polls can not even be seen as a fair reflection of Scottish public opinion for several reasons, never mind a mandate.

I could go on.  Be my guest!

There will be a second referendum and unionists only have themselves to blame. It will be defeat from the jaws of their 2014 victory.  Fremsley, please give Peter his username back.

Quote from: PeterGrant on October 20, 2020, 08:34:34 pm

Quote from: Jtc on October 20, 2020, 07:48:43 pm

Quote from: PeterGrant on October 20, 2020, 05:54:19 pm

List of mandates for a 2nd referendum

SNP election win 2015
SNP election win 2016
SNP election win 2017
SNP election win 2019
SNP election win 2021 to come
Pro-independence majority at Holyrood
Pro-independence majority of Scotland’s MPs at Westminster
The Claim of Right
International law
The UN Charter
Scottish public opinion

I could go on.

There will be a second referendum and unionists only have themselves to blame. It will be defeat from the jaws of their 2014 victory.

Peter, you had a vote on your terms and lost.
Even trusting 16 year olds to vote when your leaders won’t allow them to buy a packet of cigarettes.Some of the younger , more idealistic voters will be going for a mortgage soon . Easy to vote for something when you have no responsibility. Get a bit of debt around you and the picture changes.
You will see a federal Scotland before you see Indy.

I have circa £300k of debt.

We lost in 2015. The unionists won. And they got another 10 years out of the union.

It’s nobody’s fault but their own that they have placed it in peril once again. Had they behaved it would not be happening.

The people though now in their majority want independence and will take it through democratic means. Cest la vie.

You can't even get the year right ffs.

Quote from: Hardliner on October 20, 2020, 09:08:18 pm

Quote from: PeterGrant on October 20, 2020, 05:54:19 pm

List of mandates for a 2nd referendum

SNP election win 2015  They didn't win the election, they just gained more seats in the FPTP system which isn't a mandate.
SNP election win 2016  This isn't a mandate.  It just meant that the SNP had the most seats out of all the parties in an assembly used for devolved matters, which don't include independence referendums.  Most voters voted for Unionists parties anyway, which is a more accurate reflection on the sovereignty of the Scottish people as stated in the Claim of Right.
SNP election win 2017  They didn't win the election and they actually lost seats.  Absolutely not a mandate.
SNP election win 2019  Again, they didn't win the election.  Not a mandate.
SNP election win 2021 to come  Has Fremsley hacked your account?  Big assumption there, and even if the SNP do win this devolved assembly election **shivvers**, it isn't a mandate.  It just shows that the SNP have been elected to run Scotland in terms of matters that are devolved, which don't include independence referendums, especially ones that go against the Edinburgh agreement and have been campaigned for despite promises to the contrary.
Pro-independence majority at Holyrood  Irrelevant.  Independence referendums are not a devolved matter.
Pro-independence majority of Scotland’s MPs at Westminster.  Irrelevant, especially when most Scots voted for Unionist parties.
The Claim of Right.  The original 1689 Claim of Right, willingly signed by the moderniser good King Billy (had a ten foot willy), was to transfer power from the monarch to parliament, nothing about frequent secession referendums every few years.  The more recent Claim of Right was about the importance of the sovereignty of the Scottish people.  The most accurate barometer of Scottish opinion in this regard was the Independence referendum in 2014 where a No beat Yes by 11% on a massive turnout.  Since then, the last Holyrood election even had most Scots voting Unionist.  The Claim of Right actually backs up the stance of not having another Independence Referendum.  If we were to ignore Scottish opinion and grant another referendum, it would be denying Scots their sovereignty and going against the Claim of Right.
International law  There is nothing in International Law that could be seen as a mandate.
The UN Charter  There is nothing in the UN charter that could be seen as a mandate.
Scottish public opinion  Recent spoofing opinion polls can not even be seen as a fair reflection of Scottish public opinion for several reasons, never mind a mandate.

I could go on.  Be my guest!

There will be a second referendum and unionists only have themselves to blame. It will be defeat from the jaws of their 2014 victory.  Fremsley, please give Peter his username back.

If it’s in your manifesto and you win the election then it’s a mandate. 2021 will be an unarguable mandate with a popular majority and a two thirds majority of seats.

Underpinning is international law and the UN Charter.

The UK is out of wiggle room. And out of time.

Quote from: PeterGrant on October 20, 2020, 09:35:24 pm

Quote from: Hardliner on October 20, 2020, 09:08:18 pm

Quote from: PeterGrant on October 20, 2020, 05:54:19 pm

List of mandates for a 2nd referendum

SNP election win 2015  They didn't win the election, they just gained more seats in the FPTP system which isn't a mandate.
SNP election win 2016  This isn't a mandate.  It just meant that the SNP had the most seats out of all the parties in an assembly used for devolved matters, which don't include independence referendums.  Most voters voted for Unionists parties anyway, which is a more accurate reflection on the sovereignty of the Scottish people as stated in the Claim of Right.
SNP election win 2017  They didn't win the election and they actually lost seats.  Absolutely not a mandate.
SNP election win 2019  Again, they didn't win the election.  Not a mandate.
SNP election win 2021 to come  Has Fremsley hacked your account?  Big assumption there, and even if the SNP do win this devolved assembly election **shivvers**, it isn't a mandate.  It just shows that the SNP have been elected to run Scotland in terms of matters that are devolved, which don't include independence referendums, especially ones that go against the Edinburgh agreement and have been campaigned for despite promises to the contrary.
Pro-independence majority at Holyrood  Irrelevant.  Independence referendums are not a devolved matter.
Pro-independence majority of Scotland’s MPs at Westminster.  Irrelevant, especially when most Scots voted for Unionist parties.
The Claim of Right.  The original 1689 Claim of Right, willingly signed by the moderniser good King Billy (had a ten foot willy), was to transfer power from the monarch to parliament, nothing about frequent secession referendums every few years.  The more recent Claim of Right was about the importance of the sovereignty of the Scottish people.  The most accurate barometer of Scottish opinion in this regard was the Independence referendum in 2014 where a No beat Yes by 11% on a massive turnout.  Since then, the last Holyrood election even had most Scots voting Unionist.  The Claim of Right actually backs up the stance of not having another Independence Referendum.  If we were to ignore Scottish opinion and grant another referendum, it would be denying Scots their sovereignty and going against the Claim of Right.
International law  There is nothing in International Law that could be seen as a mandate.
The UN Charter  There is nothing in the UN charter that could be seen as a mandate.
Scottish public opinion  Recent spoofing opinion polls can not even be seen as a fair reflection of Scottish public opinion for several reasons, never mind a mandate.

I could go on.  Be my guest!

There will be a second referendum and unionists only have themselves to blame. It will be defeat from the jaws of their 2014 victory.  Fremsley, please give Peter his username back.

If it’s in your manifesto and you win the election then it’s a mandate. 2021 will be an unarguable mandate with a popular majority and a two thirds majority of seats.

Underpinning is international law and the UN Charter.

The UK is out of wiggle room. And out of time.

I could win an election to become part of my Scottish town's community council, standing on a manifesto of building a high speed railway from my house to the Auchrannie, but it still wouldn't give me a mandate to do so.

All the SNP could promise is that they'll ask the government to grant another one, as it's simply not a devolved matter.  Who can believe the SNP's promises now anyway?  They have no intention of keeping the 'Once in a Generation' one.

There is nothing in the UN charter or International Law that is a mandate for another referendum.

Quote from: PeterGrant on October 20, 2020, 05:54:19 pm

List of mandates for a 2nd referendum

SNP election win 2015  They didn't win the election, they just gained more seats in the FPTP system which isn't a mandate.
SNP election win 2016  This isn't a mandate.  It just meant that the SNP had the most seats out of all the parties in an assembly used for devolved matters, which don't include independence referendums.  Most voters voted for Unionists parties anyway, which is a more accurate reflection on the sovereignty of the Scottish people as stated in the Claim of Right.
SNP election win 2017  They didn't win the election and they actually lost seats.  Absolutely not a mandate.
SNP election win 2019  Again, they didn't win the election.  Not a mandate.
SNP election win 2021 to come  Has Fremsley hacked your account?  Big assumption there, and even if the SNP do win this devolved assembly election **shivvers**, it isn't a mandate.  It just shows that the SNP have been elected to run Scotland in terms of matters that are devolved, which don't include independence referendums, especially ones that go against the Edinburgh agreement and have been campaigned for despite promises to the contrary.
Pro-independence majority at Holyrood  Irrelevant.  Independence referendums are not a devolved matter.
Pro-independence majority of Scotland’s MPs at Westminster.  Irrelevant, especially when most Scots voted for Unionist parties.
The Claim of Right.  The original 1689 Claim of Right, willingly signed by the moderniser good King Billy (had a ten foot willy), was to transfer power from the monarch to parliament, nothing about frequent secession referendums every few years.  The more recent Claim of Right was about the importance of the sovereignty of the Scottish people.  The most accurate barometer of Scottish opinion in this regard was the Independence referendum in 2014 where a No beat Yes by 11% on a massive turnout.  Since then, the last Holyrood election even had most Scots voting Unionist.  The Claim of Right actually backs up the stance of not having another Independence Referendum.  If we were to ignore Scottish opinion and grant another referendum, it would be denying Scots their sovereignty and going against the Claim of Right.
International law  There is nothing in International Law that could be seen as a mandate.
The UN Charter  There is nothing in the UN charter that could be seen as a mandate.
Scottish public opinion  Recent spoofing opinion polls can not even be seen as a fair reflection of Scottish public opinion for several reasons, never mind a mandate.

I could go on.  Be my guest!

There will be a second referendum and unionists only have themselves to blame. It will be defeat from the jaws of their 2014 victory.  Fremsley, please give Peter his username back.

Quote from: Hardliner on October 20, 2020, 10:03:10 pm

Quote from: PeterGrant on October 20, 2020, 09:59:02 pm

Quote from: Hardliner on October 20, 2020, 09:48:02 pm

Quote from: PeterGrant on October 20, 2020, 09:35:24 pm

Quote from: Hardliner on October 20, 2020, 09:08:18 pm

Quote from: PeterGrant on October 20, 2020, 05:54:19 pm

List of mandates for a 2nd referendum

SNP election win 2015  They didn't win the election, they just gained more seats in the FPTP system which isn't a mandate.
SNP election win 2016  This isn't a mandate.  It just meant that the SNP had the most seats out of all the parties in an assembly used for devolved matters, which don't include independence referendums.  Most voters voted for Unionists parties anyway, which is a more accurate reflection on the sovereignty of the Scottish people as stated in the Claim of Right.
SNP election win 2017  They didn't win the election and they actually lost seats.  Absolutely not a mandate.
SNP election win 2019  Again, they didn't win the election.  Not a mandate.
SNP election win 2021 to come  Has Fremsley hacked your account?  Big assumption there, and even if the SNP do win this devolved assembly election **shivvers**, it isn't a mandate.  It just shows that the SNP have been elected to run Scotland in terms of matters that are devolved, which don't include independence referendums, especially ones that go against the Edinburgh agreement and have been campaigned for despite promises to the contrary.
Pro-independence majority at Holyrood  Irrelevant.  Independence referendums are not a devolved matter.
Pro-independence majority of Scotland’s MPs at Westminster.  Irrelevant, especially when most Scots voted for Unionist parties.
The Claim of Right.  The original 1689 Claim of Right, willingly signed by the moderniser good King Billy (had a ten foot willy), was to transfer power from the monarch to parliament, nothing about frequent secession referendums every few years.  The more recent Claim of Right was about the importance of the sovereignty of the Scottish people.  The most accurate barometer of Scottish opinion in this regard was the Independence referendum in 2014 where a No beat Yes by 11% on a massive turnout.  Since then, the last Holyrood election even had most Scots voting Unionist.  The Claim of Right actually backs up the stance of not having another Independence Referendum.  If we were to ignore Scottish opinion and grant another referendum, it would be denying Scots their sovereignty and going against the Claim of Right.
International law  There is nothing in International Law that could be seen as a mandate.
The UN Charter  There is nothing in the UN charter that could be seen as a mandate.
Scottish public opinion  Recent spoofing opinion polls can not even be seen as a fair reflection of Scottish public opinion for several reasons, never mind a mandate.

I could go on.  Be my guest!

There will be a second referendum and unionists only have themselves to blame. It will be defeat from the jaws of their 2014 victory.  Fremsley, please give Peter his username back.

If it’s in your manifesto and you win the election then it’s a mandate. 2021 will be an unarguable mandate with a popular majority and a two thirds majority of seats.

Underpinning is international law and the UN Charter.

The UK is out of wiggle room. And out of time.

I could win an election to become part of my Scottish town's community council, standing on a manifesto of building a high speed railway from my house to the Auchrannie, but it still wouldn't give me a mandate to do so.

All the SNP could promise is that they'll ask the government to grant another one, as it's simply not a devolved matter.  Who can believe the SNP's promises now anyway?  They have no intention of keeping the 'Once in a Generation' one.

There is nothing in the UN charter or International Law that is a mandate for another referendum.

International law and the UN charter is clear on the matter of self determination through democratic means.

The politics are that a people cannot be denied.

Whitehall is preparing for a referendum, and preparing to lose.

You're right with regards to the UN charter and International law, but that still doesn't equate to a mandate given the current context.

There is no evidence that a people are being denied.  In fact, there is evidence to the contrary.

A whopping win in May will be an undeniable mandate. That’s what Whitehall certainly thinks.